Difference between revisions of "RBE10K/Concerns/global-RBE vs local-RBE, abundance, inferior variety and technology - by TZM activist"

Revision as of 16:25, 10 February 2013

RBE10K Project Concerns - Conversation had on the 10th of February of 2012. Great material for FAQ.

TVP activist concerns about comparisons between TVP's and RBE10K's implementation approach differences, abundance, freedom to move about, variety, inferior technology.

YouTube post: Peter Joseph and Roxanne Meadows on "local RBEs"

The Rbe10k Project Their opinion is well known by all local RBEMs, and it does make sense when the objective of the local RBEm is to remain local, simply shy away from the system. However what they don't envisage is the number of local RBEs that are popping up everywhere, and the potential for a concerted effort in terms of documentation, cooperation, and mutial support, and the media effects that may have a substantial endevour like a 10,000 fully self-reliant city, producing profusely works of art and flooding social networks with pictures, videos, music, drama, comedy, graphic design, and collaborating with well known open source projects and possibly even with Universities. And having the voiced support of Peace Nobel prizewinners and other personalities of major significance. It can cause an explosion of interest (or not, this is why it is experimental, maybe it will go unnoticed). Its artwork can go viral. It an kickstart an incredible boom in interest, comparable or even higher than Zeitgeist: Addendum. Only time will tell! 4 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson the problem i see is this: even if you manage to start your so-called "local RBE community", it will be nothing like what a real RBE is. and therefore, the awareness you can create with your community is misdirected. because it will say to people "look, this is what an RBE is like", which is untrue.

and by the way, you shouldn't call it an "RBEm", because what you're trying to build is not a MODEL, is it? 4 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

Bradly Nakagawa Local RBEs make sense. It's the difference between a network system and a heirarchial one. 4 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson the Resource-Based Economy has always been defined as a GLOBAL (or at least NEAR-GLOBAL) socio-economic system. anything localized is not an RBE. 4 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa So? By "not an RBE" you're only talking about Jacque Fresco's opinion. I am very much a fan of abundance models over scarcity models and an advocate of TVP & TZM, but global central control is NOT a prerequisite for an abundance model to work. Plus, if the abundance model can work, and I believe that it can, then local abundance models can grow "grassroots" until it is global. The crazy idea that a RBE can ONLY work globaly is bullshit and makes me wonder about who's influencing JF and also wants central global control... 4 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "By "not an RBE" you're only talking about Jacque Fresco's opinion."

that is incorrect. i am talking about what makes sense, and i don't give a shit about Fresco's opinion. the problem is that a localized community simply CAN NOT fulfill many of the things that a REAL RBE does. some examples:

• in an RBE, people have the freedom to travel the planet, live in different places, and so on. in a localized community, people are restricted to one place.

• in an RBE, there is a dynamic economy of supply and demand, which allows for very individualistic products and lifestyles. in a localized community of a few thousand people, it won't be possible to create individualized products, it will have to be much more centrally planned and uniformed.

• in an RBE, there can be a very high technological level, because every place within the global RBE has access to any technology available on the planet. in a localized community, you can't locally produce things like microprocessors, so it will either need to import (with money!) those things from the outside (which means it's not a moneyless economy at all), or it will be rather low-tech.

these are only a few of the major differences between an RBE and a localized community. therefore, calling a localized community an "RBE" doesn't make sense. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "global central control is NOT a prerequisite for an abundance model to work"

global central control may be the idea of Fresco, but it doesn't make sense for a dynamic economy of supply and demand. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "Plus, if the abundance model can work, and I believe that it can, then local abundance models can grow "grassroots" until it is global."

sure, but as long as it's localized, it's not an RBE by definition. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "The crazy idea that a RBE can ONLY work globaly is bullshit and makes me wonder about who's influencing JF and also wants central global control."

now you're drifting off into nonsense conspiracy theories. i'm not even saying "an RBE can only work globally". what i'm saying is that the TERM "Resource-Based Economy" is DEFINED as a global system. of course localized communities can WORK. but the term "RBE" doesn't apply to them. do you understand that difference? 3 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project Sure, we're not trying to build a model, just as much as we're not trying to build an economy either. We're trying to USE a model of economy based on resources instead of trade to create a pursuit-of-profit-free community. In terms of an RBEM, the issue with it is that it is not properly documented anywhere (if you know where it is properly documented, other than in rbem.org itself, please point it out to us! It would be of MAJOR value! However, what we need is a DESCRIPTION OF IT, not a TALK ABOUT IT, so please don't do the obvious thing TVP supporters keep doing of sending me the link http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy, because it is way too vague to derive any significant academic value from it).

In order for anyone (including you) to know what an RBEM-based settlement ought to look like, it is paramount to have consensus on a clear definition of what it is, and what it is not, an RBEM. And that information, as far as we know, only exists, though yet incomplete and definitely not yet consensuated, in the rbem.org Wiki. Considering there is no clearly consensuated definition of it, we believe that whatever you or anyone else declares not to be fit for an RBE/RBEM, is not based on evidence, but on opinion, and that alone is one of the widely agreed characteristics that actually do not befit an RBEM mindset.

I gladly and humbly invite you to help us out finishing the description of an RBE/RBEM (http://rbem.org/wiki/RBEM), properly documented with references to distinguished, relevant and respected sources, and eliminate the component of subjectivity once and for all from the concept of an RBE/RBEM, which has remained unchallengedly vague for way too long.

Our initiative prides in having a RBEM-based settlement project and strategy based on the most accurate description available (again, to our knowledge), and almost completely consistent with it. The inconsistencies are minor, and debatable, since TVP would run the exact same inconsistencies in its projected implementation, as it would not be capable to flip instantaneously from a monetary market to a Global RBE in an instant, it would have to be a process over time. The RBE10K Project is also a Global RBEM initiative over time (42 years, counting the two of the planning for the experiment, i.e. finishing with a Global RBE by 2055). We will never know if we abort right now, if by 2055 there would be a TVP flavour Global RBE fully implemented by 2055, because it not only lacks a plan for implementation as yet (after how many years of development?) but also depends on way too many and incredibly complex and uncertain external variables.

The RBE10K Project has a significant chance to develop a sound plan for implementation within two years, thanks to currently and readily available free technologies like Facebook, Mediawiki, Google Plus, YouTube, Flickr, Google Search, Google Drive, Google Mail, Skype, Bettermeans, GIT, GNU/Linux, PHP, Apache Web Server, Earthship plans, Open Source Ecology models, Permaculture, Aeroponics, and a wealth of other immediately available free technologies that we can tap into immediately to get a completely consistent RBEM-based settlement plan completed by October 2014. The experiment will put the whole thing to the test. Should the experiment work, we'll gradually and exponentially move towards our goal. Many things can happen between 2017 (the end of the experiment) and 2055 (the end of the project), however we will progress relentlessly and committedly towards it, and hopefully everything will go to plan and succeed, for the benefit of the whole Humanity.

Resource Based Economy thevenusproject.com The Venus Project offers a comprehensive plan for social reclamation in which hu...See more 3 hours ago · Like · Remove Preview

Thomas A. Anderson "Sure, we're not trying to build a model, just as much as we're not trying to build an economy either. We're trying to USE a model of economy based on resources instead of trade to create a pursuit-of-profit-free community."

you're still using "RBEm" incorrectly, when you say:

"Their opinion is well known by all local RBEMs" or "the objective of the local RBEm is to remain local"

you're not talking about "resource based economy MODELS" there, are you? so you shouldn't call them RBEMs. that doesn't make sense. 3 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa "* in an RBE, people have the freedom to travel the planet, live in different places, and so on. in a localized community, people are restricted to one place."

So during the transition phase, we'll have to still use money in some places. So what? We use dollars where I live, but that doesn't mean I can't visit Japan because they use Yen. "When in Rome..." If it's a solid model, it'll expand organically. It only needs to be imposed upon everybody if the idea sucks. I don't think that's the case here.

"in a localized community of a few thousand people, it won't be possible to create individualized products"

Again, only at first during the transitional phase. But so what? We can still take care of the easy stuff: Food, clothes, shelter, transportation, entertainment, etc. and then add continuously from there. We want it to be a dynamic model, so even far after the transition phase, new and more individualized products will be added. Localized or global, this is a wash.

"in a localized community, you can't locally produce things like microprocessors"

Why not?

"what i'm saying is that the TERM "Resource-Based Economy" is DEFINED as a global system."

Okay. But to me the term sounds pretty self defining, and "global" isn't anywhere in the term. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "In terms of an RBEM, the issue with it is that it is not properly documented anywhere (if you know where it is properly documented, other than in rbem.org itself, please point it out to us! It would be of MAJOR value!"

watch all the videos on the official TZM youtube channel. those are hundreds of hours of detailed documentation. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "so please don't do the obvious thing TVP supporters keep doing"

i am not a TVP supporter. TVP is very limited in their views, and they are an ungrateful bunch. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "Considering there is no clearly consensuated definition of it, we believe that whatever you or anyone else declares not to be fit for an RBE/RBEM, is not based on evidence, but on opinion, and that alone is one of the widely agreed characteristics that actually do not befit an RBEM mindset."

this is just a weak attempt at belittling me.

if you have missed the fact that from the start, the RBEM has always been a GLOBAL model, then you should pay closer attention.

a localized community simply CAN NOT fulfill many of the things that a REAL RBE does. some examples:

• in an RBE, people have the freedom to travel the planet, live in different places, and so on. in a localized community, people are restricted to one place.

• in an RBE, there is a dynamic economy of supply and demand, which allows for very individualistic products and lifestyles (example: there can be 100 different flavors of soy yoghurt available). in a localized community of a few thousand people, it won't be possible to create a great number of individualized products, it will have to be much more centrally planned and uniformed (it won't be economically feasible to create 100 different flavors of soy yoghurt in a community of a few thousand people).

• in an RBE, there can be a very high technological level, because every place within the global RBE has access to any technology available on the planet. in a localized community, you can't locally produce things like microprocessors, so it will either need to import (with money!) those things from the outside (which means it's not a moneyless economy at all), or it will be rather low-tech.

these are only a few of the major differences between an RBE and a localized community. overall, a localized community will never be able to deliver the levels of freedom, abundance and technology that an RBE can provide. therefore, calling a localized community an "RBE" doesn't make sense, because it sends the wrong message. it tells people "look, this is what an RBE is", when in actuality an RBE is 1000 times more.

calling a localized community an "RBE" is actually bad advertising.

i understand that you are so in love with your project that your self-critical thinking abilities are probably weakened. but please try to see what i'm saying. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "and eliminate the component of subjectivity once and for all from the concept of an RBE/RBEM, which has remained unchallengedly vague for way too long"

there has never been any vague-ness about the fact that an RBE is a global system. you're just making it vague by calling a local community an "RBE". 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "The RBE10K Project is also a Global RBEM initiative over time (42 years, counting the two of the planning for the experiment, i.e. finishing with a Global RBE by 2055)"

making such time predictions is ridiculous and makes you look like fools. if you think you can predict a time-frame for a global RBE, you're delusional. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson i think your main problem is that you're trying to skip the most important step on the way to an RBE: the global value shift. you think you can skip right ahead to an RBE by creating a community of a few thousand relatively rich people (i consider them relatively rich if they have 10k USD to spare). what you're likely to end up with is a low-tech, centrally planned commune that will be NOTHING like an RBE. 3 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa I still don't see why you're so hung up on global or nothing. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson i am not. it seems you're not reading or not understanding what i'm saying. 3 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa The latter's true enough, but I've read this entire (lengthy) thread. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson then do you not agree that a local community can NOT provide the levels of:

• abundance
• freedom
• technology
• and other things

that a global RBE can?

and therefore do you not agree that calling a local community an "RBE" is completely watering down the term "RBE"? 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson it's like saying "hey, we want to create a global society of abundance and freedom, and to demonstrate what we mean, we're building this restricted low-tech commune". completely idiotic. 3 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa Even a fully global RBE cannot provide the same levels of all of the above of an RBE from a few years later. The idea is a dynamic model. Jacque talks about how future generations will come up with designs that far surpass his circular city designs. Since it's not a static system we're going for, what does it matter if it's not everything right from the get go? The longer it's around, the better it'll provide for everyone. Right? 3 hours ago · Unlike · 1

Thomas A. Anderson "Even a fully global RBE cannot provide the same levels of all of the above of an RBE from a few years later."

that is completely beside the point i'm making. 3 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "Since it's not a static system we're going for, what does it matter if it's not everything right from the get go?"

it matters because this kind of local commune wouldn't be a "step up", but rather a step DOWN for most people. it makes the idea of an RBE completely unattractive when you show people a commune with LESS FREEDOM, LESS ABUNDANCE and LESS TECHNOLOGY than they have now! 3 hours ago · Edited · Like

Bradly Nakagawa We see things very differently I guess. 2 hours ago · Unlike · 1

Thomas A. Anderson that's just a cop-out now. don't try to make this a "matter of opinion". if you can disprove what i'm saying, do so. if you can't, then i guess what i'm saying is correct. 2 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa Religious fanatics make that same argument. I'm fine with your guess and have nothing to prove. 2 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson living in a local commune, as compared to living in the monetary market system today, would:

• restrict people's freedom to travel

• provide less variety and abundance

• provide a lower level of technology

how is that supposed to seem attractive to anyone, when this commune is used to "show" what an RBE would be like??

people would only think "nah, why would i want to give up my freedom, my technology and my variety?" 2 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson "Religious fanatics make that same argument."

i see, so you're out of arguments and have moved on to ad hominem attacks. 2 hours ago · Like

Bradly Nakagawa More of an association fallacy than an ad hominem, right? But to the point that I'm done arguing, you're right. 2 hours ago · Like

Thomas A. Anderson you're misquoting me. i said you're out of arguments. 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project There is no such thing as a REAL RBE. RBE is a symbol, coined by Jacque Fresco. A symbol with a general (and pretty vague) meaning attached. A symbol that has become popularised and took a life of its own, and of which its meaning has been accrued by the collective of th supporters of the vague but inspiring comments of Jacque Fresco first in Designing the Future, and popularised by Peter Joseph with HIS interpretation of Fresco's vague picture of the idea. TZM, being horizontal and voluntary, took that symbol, picked and chose bits and pieces from Fresco's original vague idea, PJ's more well defined picture of it based on his own personal understanding, and the chapters continued distorting and evolving the concept, always from subjective personal understandings. The lack of a concerted and agreed accurate description allows for this kind of mess, and when you say REAL RBE, you're actually not talking about anything specific, but your own personal and subjective understanding based on whatever you've seen and read. There is no such thing as a REAL RBE. There are only concerted understandings in various circles, general agreements about phrases that have been repeated by Fresco over and over again (as if that was an accurate description of the whole thing).

All the statements you made in your bullet points are mere assumptions based on your personal understanding and hope, based on no concrete source (that we know of, if there is such a source, please share it with us and we'll enrich our definition with it, making it even more accurate). Your first bullet point will be possible when the saturation of RBE10K settlements is significant enough to permit such freedom of movement, maybe toward the 2040's. Second bullet point: Completely accurate description of one of the features of the RBE10K Project objectives for each and every one of its settlements. Third bullet point: applicable to RBE10K Project depending on saturation of the planet with settlements, and/or availability of such technology developed in-house, which might happen at any time through shortly upcoming technologies like 3D printing of semiconductors and open source hardware (in case of TVP's proposal, such a feature would be available only at a highly uncertain time, but highly unlikely within 10 years. 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project There are enough references everywhere to a Global RBE (including by TVP) to assume the Global characteristic is not implicit. How about TVP's so talked about first city? What will it be called? Semi-RBE? Local-RBE? I'd love you to point out to the documentation about that.

The predictions for a steady and consistent plan is just as absurd as the prediction that Capitalism will give up its hegemony willingly to TVP's supporters. There is no basis to believe that such thing would ever happen. Capitalism fiercely defends itself, and it is much more likely to self destroy completely than give up willingly.

The global value shift that you refer can happen as a result of many things. Activism, a movie, a country setting an example, a policy by United Nations, ...or a successful experiment showing that living without pursuit of profit, money, jobs, law, property, contracts, authority, consumerism, luxury, so-called "freedom" (the one that people believe to have when it is actually tied and limited to their purchasing power), and so forth. A successful experimental RBEM-based settlement is likely to begin tipping the balance, however, whilst a lot of enthused people about this successful experiment will begin to support TVP (and possibly a good portion will join TZM too, or just TZM, or none of them but RBE10K only) will want to move to the second city, a copy of the first, with any improvements resulting from the experience of the first. Whilst more and more people get enthused about these projects, whilst TVP keeps begging Capitalism to give up, RBE10K will continue growing (if the experiment works, of course, which it mightn't, or it might not even achieve a full working plan and abandon). RBE10K will support TVP actively, but will not wait for it to get started, it will continue growing exponentially as per the plan proposed to the community that so many people are supported so enthusiastically. 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project When you say low-tech, what are you referring to? Based on what parameters? Low tech as per the current technological capacity? Yes, Low tech as the technological capacity of the 70s when Fresco stated on television that "we have the technology to do a RBE right now"? No. We'll use much higher technology than that. Much MUCH higher! We'll just be low budget, very high technology (as per that parameter, which is completely fair game, as Fresco stated it HIMSELF). 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project RBE10K will focus on ensuring there's abundance to cover all needs, as per what the RBE10K Project plan will establish (by emergence and consensus) that are needs to be covered (except a very few exceptional cases like a fully functional hospital capable of making complex operations, for example, as a trade of to be capable of implementing in a very short term). RBE10K Project will enable and guarantee full freedom, within the community. The volunteers who move to the any of its communities will understand this, and will understand that they have the freedom to go back to their homes. Freedom to move about will be gained, again, as saturation of the planet with RBE10K settlements reaches certain tipping point. RBE10K will have extensive technology, including high Internet bandwidth, tablet computers for each volunteer, an automated system of intelligent management of available resources, highly effective and complex machinery from Open Source Ecology, 3D sand and plastic printers, eventually and possibly very soon also 3D semiconductor printers, machinery for processing food, for doing laundry, for extracting oil, for making soap, for making thread, for making cloth, for making wood from pulp, for growing plants (e.g. Hydroponic Garden Carousel, Omega Garden), etc. Other things: all that you can imagine, we're likely to easily come back with a wealth of examples, just like we've just done in this message. 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project "blah blah troll blah blah. completely idiotic". Response. It is like saying "hey, we want to create a castle, and demonstrate we can achieve it, but our budget only enables us for a medium size truck, so we'll bring the first layer of rocks and mortar...See More 2 hours ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project The major difference between TVP's approach and RBE10K's approach is that TVP plans to IMPOSE a Global RBE system on everybody in the world, and the RBE10K Project plans to INVITE those who WILLINGLY AND VOLUNTARILY wish to make the lifestyle change, a...See More about an hour ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200421980769977&set=o.188826381259250&type=1&theater 36 minutes ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project Talking about the superiority of monetary market technology... Stupid iOS Facebook Pages froze while replying, fortunately got a chance to take a picture of the text, which is pasted in the link above 34 minutes ago · Like

The Rbe10k Project That addresses all of Thomas's expressed concerns in this thread, we believe. Please Thomas, let us know if any of the responses has not addressed your concerns satisfactorily! Thank you so much for your valuable criticism, all this information will go on feed the FAQ section Project's Wiki we hope that the responses were not too offensive to you (there were some that had a somewhat disgruntled tone in relation to TVP, and that's unfair to you because we know you're passionate about their initiative, which is wonderful and we totally support you in that. We apologise for any hurt feelings and will try to keep any past hard feelings we share towards TVP (which we acknowledge most of us do, for similar reasons) and that's not cool. TVP is a sister project and we love it, and support the whole community of wonderful and enthusiastic activists of TVP, which are doing so much for raising awareness, are surely taking personal responsibility in many areas of their personal lives, like reducing consumerism and support green technologies.

The great majority of the RBE10K Project loves Jacque Fresco and considers him a wonderful visionary. And the majority of our supporters surely got initially inspired in wonder and amazement at the circular city, the futurist technology animations and maquettes. Go TVP! We really want it to make progress, we want to see what plans they come up with, we want to see the major motion picture in the works, many of us are active supporters and contributors of TVP, and we wish we could collaborate. We actually offered the Corcen development team making use of all information in our Wiki (we couldn't prevent it anyways hahaha!), and participate actively, collaborate, or make use at will from our upcoming open source project for an intelligent management of resources, which will be hosted in SourceForge and licensed as GPL.